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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.01.22 18:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here are the issues as I see them.
1. Incursions have caused a player community to develop in high sec. Given the problems CCP has had in creating communities in high sec this is a major accomplishment. The issue is that if people lose their community they won't go do something else, they will stop playing and cancel their accounts.
2. 0.0 corps are community Piranah, starving entities that will devour anything they come in contact with. The isk buy in, for capships, supercaps and other required material, has become so high that a corp from high or low sec cannot afford to move to null. Among other things supercaps are community killers. Once you need supercaps in corp to join a null alliance no none moon holding corp is going to be able to pay to play. As a result to play in null players must abandon their current corp/community and join an established nullsec corp. Also when it comes to community, many null sec corps are complete fail and require a constant influx of new blood.
3. High sec players are very angry that as soon as a feature that allowed for the creation of a high sec community a 0.0 alliance came in and said "no soup for you." Additionally, high sec mechanics render the community powerless to resist. Each wardeccagainst an alliance increase the price. Suicide ganking gives the target kill rights. It seems to the high sec players that null alliances are insisting that all group content must be in null space. Also, experience shows that moving group content to null space has one of two effects. Either nobody runs it or a null alliance nominates a small group to run it for the alliance and the members neither see the isk nor the content (anyone remember static plexes).
4. Plex prices are through the roof. Null sec players are blaming this on incursions. High sec players (many of which have only one account) tend to blame a bad economy constricting plex supply for the problem. (According to market stats in The Forge, sales of Plex have risen since Incursions was announced). I'm not sure what is going on but I tend to blame a bad economy restricting supply of plex more than anything else. There are around 5000 plex sales a day in Jita, there are not enough incursion runners to make a dint in that volume.
5. Null sec players want their anomalies unnerfed so that they can do their isk grinding in their home territory. This would allow them to strengthen their communities. Frankly if moon goo got nerfed into oblivion and anomalies got unnerfed, I think it would be a big win for the entire game. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Brumi Viri wrote:To allow Griefers to destroy the playing experience in high sector by killing MoM within hours of spawning is going to cost CCP money because customers like me will unsubscribe. Ah, the classic GÇ£CCP needs botters to pay the billsGÇ¥ defence.
Not sure what this has to do with anything. If a bot leaves the game nothing of value is lost. If a player leaves the game he or she takes a bit of their community along with them. The more players that leave the closer we get to a critical mass that will convince the other players in that community that is is also time to leave. People play an MMO for the community.
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
The 1% is the current inflation value, I assume this is an annual figure not a monthly one. And the fact that CCP reported to the CSM that it wasnt an issue refutes your scare mongering attempt to twist the statistics for personal selfish reasons as opposed to an objective argument.
Seems to be an ongoing trend with the griefers however, in that they need to invent reasons.
It is a monthly figure according to CSM minutes. so the annual inflation is 1.001^12-1=12.7%
Hence:
Make incursions a low sec only feature.
+ boosting low sec
+ keeping risk reward balance
Off Topic:
Remove insurance payout from 0.0 and increase bounties and indstrial benefits in 0.0
+ defeats where no supers die will actually hurt your wallet
+ stronger incentives to move to 0.0
+ keeps is faucet and sinks balanced
+ increases the "risk" in 0.0 (at least in PvP)
Besides that i am also for a delayed local in 0.0 so that you actually really need an intel ship and not just someone in a cloaky ship on a safe. And it would make Carebearing in 0.0 actually risky... Right know there is no risk as long as you are not Brain-Afk or stupid.[/quote]
Yeah move it the low sec, where every single other feature ever put their has died. Moving a feature to low sec is the equivalent of killing it (FW is a special case). The mechanics of low sec favor the pvp aggressor. Gate guns and sec loss mean that organized defenders are at a disadvantage. At the same time aggressor groups (pirates) are advantaged. Low sec mechanics are a prescripted drama of pirate ganks victim. No player with half a brain is going to volunteer to take the role of victim. Face it, WH space is what low sec should have been.
There is no practical difference between moving a feature to low sec and restricting it to null only.
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Not sure what this has to do with anything. In essence: GǣWaah, another player playing the game legitimately is keeping me from exploiting weaknesses in the rule set to milk every last ISK-cent from this feature. Allowing him to do so will make us leave, and you will suffer!!Gǥ GǪmuch like how various botting proponents have defended the use of bots and decried any methods to halt their botting.
I think the objection is that current incursions are being brought to an end well prior to the time that would reasonably allow everybody who wants to, to participate. It also touches onto one of the few hot button issues in high sec, if griefers can routinely disrupt PvE people are going to flat out cancel their accounts. In most other situation greifing comes as a player is doing something. If you get suicide ganked on the way to Jita that's a bit of play experience. On the other hand Incursion griefing brings up the situation of log in, nothing to do tonight, log out. Instead of playing the game, the griefers are causing a large swath to not play the game. In general people do not pay money to not play a game (contrary to popular opinion most high sec players have one account which they pay for with RL money).
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Not sure what this has to do with anything. In essence: GǣWaah, another player playing the game legitimately is keeping me from exploiting weaknesses in the rule set to milk every last ISK-cent from this feature. Allowing him to do so will make us leave, and you will suffer!!Gǥ GǪmuch like how various botting proponents have defended the use of bots and decried any methods to halt their botting.
There are two flaws in the incursions feature. The first is a game design flaw. The isk distribution on the current sites are not balanced such as to encourage people to run the harder sites. Keep in mind that any content balanced to be run by groups of players is going to produce some descent isk. This is because humans>NPCs. Yes Vangaurds need their isk output dropped a bit, but probably not as much as you would think.
The second flaw is that the mobility feature. Incursions are designed to move so that no group can assert ownership over the content (unlike the old static plexes). Desire to participate in this feature is large enough that the movement feature became a limiting feature. The work around for this flaw was simply an agreement amongst all concerned not to immediately ended the incursion. This work around is proving unworkable.
Unless you can show that ending an Incursion was met as a limiting feature and not a feature to prevent static ownership it is you who are exploiting a weakness in the ruleset to exploit a loophole.
I suspect a good bit of what is going on here is that inflation + faction fits are eating in Nulls moon goo income. (CCP Nerf goo, buff anoms please). |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Jas Dor wrote:It also touches onto one of the few hot button issues in high sec, if griefers can routinely disrupt PvE people are going to flat out cancel their accounts. What makes you wonder what those players did before we got Incursions about a year ago.
Probably played a different game. High Sec isn't exactly the home of the majority of bittervets. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 22:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:
+1
I don't understand why people take a risk based, multi-player game and try to create a risk free grind for themselves out of it. But you encounter the mindset in just about any MMO. People come to a conceptual game, then try to recreate the gameplay they had in their previous MMO after having left it.
Hum, I guess you can't understand why people might get together and play D&D every week at a particular time (the PnP Game not the MMO).
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.01.23 01:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wow, it's 8p.m. CST Sunday night and their are only 31,000 people online according to eve stats we maxed at around 50,000. While I know some of that is maxing with EU/US overlap it looks like number of pilots online might be down 4,000-5,000+ with the closing of all high sec incursions.
BTW I brought up D&D to point out that people like to get together for scheduled gaming events. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 02:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well we're down under 31,000 at 8 PM on a Sunday. At this point we're beginning to see the knock on effects of drop in player participation. I know I just logged off two market alts as volume is way off right now. Speaking of better things to do. . .
Hey CCP anything that kills your players online numbers like this is a serious fing problem. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 02:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
double post |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 02:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tres Farmer wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Wow, it's 8p.m. CST Sunday night and their are only 31,000 people online according to eve stats we maxed at around 50,000. While I know some of that is maxing with EU/US overlap it looks like number of pilots online might be down 4,000-5,000+ with the closing of all high sec incursions.
BTW I brought up D&D to point out that people like to get together for scheduled gaming events. Mate, you should check those figures again, looks pretty healthy, considering what CCP wnet through last 6-9 months.. http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility *Where do you make out those -5k players? *) Chribba does draw them 'backwards'.. most recent activity is most left in all of his graphs
Quote:
Currently online: 30,138
Max today: 50,367
CCP had a very good day, then they didn't. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2012.01.23 19:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lets do some math. According to CCP incursions are paying out 621 billion a week. Lets use 30m/hour as a conservative figure on how much a level 4 mission runner can make. That gives us a total of 20700 l4 man/hours a week. Assuming 23/7 uptime we get 161 hours/week. Since Incrusion's can't be botted no one player will be able to play 23/7. In total though the isk for incursions equals the same income generation (live load) per hour as 129 level IV missions being run in that hour. (=621,000,000,000 / 30,000,000 / 161)
What this tells me is that the isk per hour of running an incursion isn't as good as most people think. While the isk per hour actually running incursions seems great, when organizational and transit times are taken into account-not so much. The current idea of incursions as an isk generator seem to be generated by a couple of things.
1. Time flys when you're having fun. People of underestimating their total time commitment.
2. Big wallet flashies and bad math.
3. Folks flying faction ships with faction fits for the the first time and underestimating how much they could make with those ships running level 4s (it's more than 30m/hour).
4. Incursions are not being run evenly but at peak times. This means that a higher hourly reward is possible, but there is a lot of down/cycle time without heavy incursion running.
Bottom line 621b/week is a drop in the bucket for the eve economy (the Plex market in Jita churns 1.2T per DAY!). All this rage is a community issue being mistaken for an ISK one. If these shinny fleets split up and ran level 4s, there pilots would probably find themselves making more isk/hour. The enjoyment of flying with people (and unfamiliarity with use of heavy faction fits in L4s) is inflating the perception of profit. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 21:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just a quick note, the 60bil/week number for incursions comes from the NPC news item posted by CCP and is an official number. We can argue permutations but I expect everyone here realizes that the level 4 number is a lowball. |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 21:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Andski wrote:Ai Mei wrote:Then failure to complete 0.0 incursions in your space should result in loss of
sov in the HQ system, and immediately changes sov to Sanshas Nation and the only way to take it back is to anchor SBU's and shoot the sansha ihub and tcu.
and loss of 1 level for each upgrade in all the other systems. you're an idiot
NPC based risk is non-zero in incursions. That you only recognize PC based risk is not our problem. In this context it NPC risk is. Very important factor as it influences the isk/hour ratio of the sites.
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2012.01.24 04:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Just a quick note, the 60bil/week number for incursions comes from the NPC news item posted by CCP and is an official number. We can argue permutations but I expect everyone here realizes that the level 4 number is a lowball. Link?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59084&find=unread
Or you could go fish through the NPC news.
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2012.01.24 05:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Andski wrote:Jas Dor wrote:Andski wrote:Ai Mei wrote:Then failure to complete 0.0 incursions in your space should result in loss of
sov in the HQ system, and immediately changes sov to Sanshas Nation and the only way to take it back is to anchor SBU's and shoot the sansha ihub and tcu.
and loss of 1 level for each upgrade in all the other systems. you're an idiot NPC based risk is non-zero in incursions. That you only recognize PC based risk is not our problem. In this context it NPC risk is. Very important factor as it influences the isk/hour ratio of the sites. you run incursions with concord protection and make 100m+/hr you wouldn't be flying ships that would take a hundred hours of incursions to recover the cost IF THE RISK OF LOSING THEM WAS THAT GREAT hint: it's not
One ship pop a month/month and a half of playtime? That's about the same rate of ship loss per pilot as the alliance I was in (on the goon side) was taking during the the BoB/Kenny war. If we get lucky TiDi might up that number substantially, but the average line pilot in 0.0 is not loosing a bunch of ships (dictor and bad inty pilots are another story). |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 01:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Elistea wrote:Incursions were big part of my EVE's social life. Got to know great group of ppl i ran them with. Now i lost that. As i mentioned B4 i used incursions to fuel my PVP. Since this income is gone i had to make tough decision - deactivate 2 of my 3 accounts. (CCP will love that  ) Ill give it couple more days/weeks and if nothing changes im back to Starcraft 2. If CCP doesn't care - I don't care  Please have a look at this screenshot. What you see there is the development of the plex price in the last year in Jita, the main market for this fine item of bittervet prolongment. Incursions where introduced about a year ago, you can see the price on the left. We are now at the price on the right. It is right now fairly easy for you to plex your 3 account with running up to 2 hours of Incursions per day. Lets say you make 100M per day, every day (a fairly high picture frankly). You would earn 3B ISK per 30 days. If we take the growth of plex prices for the last 2 month and keep going for another 2 years (pretty unlikely, I know) you would have to pay 5BISK per month to keep your 3 accounts active. I'm a griefer by heard. I really care about your feelings and I therefore beg you to stay with us. I really want to see your tears when you realise that the collected greed for faction shinies of your "social life" is forcing you out of the game. Quite frankly, if you call farming the same NPCs (exactly the same NPCs) over and over again your "social life" you may want to look for professional help. I really mean it because I, as a griefer, recognise and care about other players feelings.
You know PI also came out at about the same time as incursions. Hum which do I think is causing inflation, a couple people running incursions or the removal of a massive isk sink (NPC POS fuels). |
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 04:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jas Dor wrote:One ship pop a month/month and a half of playtime? That's about the same rate of ship loss per pilot as the alliance I was in (on the goon side) was taking during the the BoB/Kenny war. If we get lucky TiDi might up that number substantially, but the average line pilot in 0.0 is not loosing a bunch of ships (dictor and bad inty pilots are another story). I lose anything between 2-10 maelstroms every month, depending on how many fights we have, and how competent the enemy is. That's not a risk, that's a certainty.
According to battleclinic you haven't had a kill since 2010. I'm just going to hazard a guess that you're an alt of somebody high enough up in Goonswarm to pull a little bit of extra aggro. One loss a month doesn't hold true if you're FCing.
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 05:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Jas Dor wrote:You know PI also came out at about the same time as incursions. Hum which do I think is causing inflation, a couple people running incursions or the removal of a massive isk sink (NPC POS fuels). PI does not generate ISK nor does it do so in highsec. I have 15 planets myself and they are good ISK - in lowsec. That's where highsec incursion runners wont go. The money that I earn with my 15 planets has to come from somewhere. Moon goo can't be it because it's moon goo and not ISK. Sanctums are less ISK then Incursions and there are a lot fewer of them then there used to be. Missions provide a nice ISK sink with the LP shop and they where not changed in the last year. I'm terribly sorry but the only place where that ISK can come from are Incursions. It would be nice when CCP would step up and provide some hard numbers but for some strange reason I doubt they will do that any time soon, because it would put them between a rock and a hard place. The rock are the stressed out Incursion runners and the hard place are the "griefers". Ohh, and PI did not came at the same time then Incursions. It came with Dominion. Dominion Release date: December 1st, 2009. Incursion 18 January 2011: New character creator, and Sansha's Nation incursion content (incursions actually start on 25 January) source: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Eve_ExpansionsI do not claim to be an expert in math but you seam to be more then a year off target.
It also came with little 500m3 rocket ships that you had to go fetch the container for after launch. Purchase of NPC POS fuels use to to be an ISK sink. It no longer is. Considering the money I'm making from PI, it is a very large ISK sink that is no longer there.
Oh, and you're doing it wrong.
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Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2012.01.26 05:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Lyrrashae wrote:From what I can see, they don't need nerfing or buffing per se, it's the loophole in the mechanic/s that allows the easier ones to be farmed 23.5/7 that needs closing. If you consider that a nerf, then well...  And if you do the hard ones on asian difficulty you get nothing. And you don't want to do that anyway. Because the more player you have in your fleet the faster you get it done and the easier it gets to compensate losses. There is no reason for you to take any risk because you would get less reward if you would do so. This is EVE turned upside down. But I'm quite happy because I podded one of the blackbird guy. His constant rudeness in written form did not serve him well.
Sigh, I wonder if mixing the blackbirds with some ships loaded with T1 neuts would work better. Something like this:
[Moa, Suicide]
Medium Energy Neutralizer I
Medium Energy Neutralizer I
Medium Energy Neutralizer I
Medium Energy Neutralizer I
Medium Energy Neutralizer I
Medium Energy Neutralizer I
10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Battery I
Warp Disruptor I
Stasis Webifier I
Reactor Control Unit I
Reactor Control Unit I
Reactor Control Unit I
Reactor Control Unit I
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
Hornet EC-300 x3
Logistics might have an ungodly sensor strength but getting your capacitor killed is never fun. Not sure if it's worth swapping a weber for a painter. A logistics main defense is a damn small sig radius. Maybe two ships with webs to each one with a painter. Slow it down, increase its sig radius and hope that's enough for the NPCs to pop it. Also Cap battery can be replaced with a large T1 shield extender, but I'm not sure how much good that is going to do you.
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